🎧 Now also for reading: This podcast episode as transcript

150 years ago, Daniel Peter laid the foundation for a global myth with the first modern milk chocolate – and for Switzerland's image as a chocolate nation. This episode covers sweet success stories, fierce price wars around Milka in Germany, and the surprising connection between chocolate and railways.

Additionally, Servus. Grüezi. Hallo. discusses a possible new headscarf ban for female students in Austria: Why a similar law already failed once before, what has changed this time – and what the legal situation looks like in Germany and Switzerland.

👉 We have fully transcribed this episode so you can conveniently read, quote, or search through the content. 🎙️ You can listen to the original audio of the episode here: (Link to original audio file)

Detailed Structured Transcript - Transalpine Podcast #380

INTRO & GREETING

Moderator: Welcome to the 380th edition of the Transalpine Podcast

The three participants:

• Lenz Jakobsen - Editor in the political section of Zeit in Berlin
• Matthias Daum - Head of the Swiss edition of Zeit in Zurich
• Florian Klenk - Head of Zeit in Austria in Vienna

Episode topics:

1. Headscarf ban in Austria
2. Chocolate

Contact: [email protected] and WhatsApp (number in show notes)

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PRELIMINARY TOPICS

Update on Austria (Lenz)

Context: In the previous week, they had reported on archivist Rainer Schaden

Lenz reports:

• Trial against archivist Rainer Schaden ended with acquittal
• Public prosecutor's charge: "National Socialist reactivation"
• Reason: He had sold books from historian Brigitte Hamann's estate
• Eight lay judges unanimously rejected the charge
• The books may continue to be sold (will not be confiscated)
• Lenz's comment: "Austria is not as crazy as I always assume it to be" - "a reassuring piece of news from Austria for a change"

Live Show Announcement

Florian:

• Date: Monday, December 17, 2025, 7 PM
• Location: Opera Graz (first show in Styria)
• After the Burgtheater, now for the first time in an opera house
• Jokingly: Discussion whether they should perform "The Magic Flute," "Don Giovanni," or "Prisoners' Chorus"

Lenz's contribution:

• Would rather play Siegfried (Wagner)
• Matthias counters: "Siegfried Wagner, that's at Bayreuth, not Graz"
• Lenz: "Runs there continuously for 87 hours" (allusion to the length of Wagner operas)

Info: All details at zeit.de/alpen-podcast-live (link in show notes)

Last Episode of the Year

• This is the last regular episode of 2024
• Christmas episode will be released on December 22 (Monday)
• One week break over New Year's
• Back to regular schedule from January 2025

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TOPIC 1: HEADSCARF BAN IN AUSTRIA

Introduction (Matthias)

Matthias: "You are showing, you Austrians, quite surprising political persistence on one topic. That's not something we know you for."

Florian's Report on the New Law

Historical Context:

• Austria had already decided on a headscarf ban for girls under 14 years ago
• This was overturned by the Constitutional Court
• Now a new law has been passed

Lenz's reaction: "What's that saying: Stupidity is making the same mistake twice?"

Florian on the old law:

• Came from the black-blue government under Chancellor Kurz
• Was struck down by the Constitutional Court

Constitutional Court's reasoning (quote): "A regulation that only affects a specific group of female students and remains selective in securing religious and ideological neutrality as well as gender equality fails to achieve its regulatory goal and is unreasonable. Section 43a of the School Education Act therefore violates the principle of equality in conjunction with the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion."

The new law:

Decision:

• Passed in the National Council last week
• By the "three-party coalition" (ÖVP, SPÖ, NEOS)
• All parties voted in favor except the Greens

Why didn't the Greens vote in favor?

• Not for substantive reasons against the ban
• But because they assume it will not hold up constitutionally again

Legal text (quote): "To ensure the best possible development and unfolding of all students in the interest of the child's welfare and especially to promote the self-determination, equal rights, and visibility of girls, female students are prohibited from wearing a headscarf that covers the head according to Islamic traditions until they reach the age of 14."

Where the ban applies:

• In school
• NOT during off-site instruction
• NOT at school events outside of school

Responsibility: "Legal guardians are obligated to ensure compliance with the ban."

Timeline:

• From February: "Information phase"
• From school year 2026/27: Sanctions
• Fines: 150 to 800 euros

Lenz's follow-up question: "This isn't about girls generally not being allowed to wear headscarves anymore in Austria, but that they can't do so in class anymore. On the street while shopping etc., nobody still forbids them that."

Florian: "Correct."

Affected Numbers

Matthias: "Do we know how many girls are affected by this?"

Florian:

• Numbers are uncertain
• Estimate: about 12,000 girls under 14 wear headscarves in school
• This is a government estimate
• Unclear how this number was reached

Lenz (skeptical): "Do those who wanted to pass this law have an interest in making this number as high as possible or low?"

Florian: "That would be an insinuation now. I know that as little as I know how this number came about."

The Role of NEOS (liberal party)

Lenz: "What surprised me, Florian: You have a three-party coalition. In it are the ÖVP and SPÖ as allies and the liberal NEOS. How do they reconcile this clothing ban with their actual claim to freedom?"

Florian on the political consensus: "I was extremely surprised, and surprised in a negative way, by how unanimous everyone was that this headscarf ban was a good thing."

The parties' positions:

• FPÖ: In favor (doesn't go far enough for them)
• ÖVP: Has wanted it for a long time
• SPÖ: Now wants it too
• NEOS: Also in favor

NEOS reasoning (Yannick Shetty, faction leader):

• Spoke of a "toxic headscarf debate" that he wanted to "detoxify"
• Argument: The ban doesn't restrict freedom but protects the freedom of girls under 14
• Protection "against Islamist influencers and moral guardians"
• "Decisions about the body should lie with the girls themselves"

Florian: "I don't find it completely wrong either. I just find the conclusion in the ban [problematic]."

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SWITZERLAND - Matthias' Report

Matthias on the Swiss position:

Federal Council (2024): Rejects national headscarf ban at schools - Quote: "In a liberal society, dress codes should be used restrictively anyway."

Federal Court (2015):

• General ban on "children's headscarves" at public schools is NOT constitutional

But: Federal Court ruling from 1997:

• It is fundamentally permissible if the state wants to ban a teacher (not student!) from wearing a headscarf in class
• This has happened in some cantons in individual cases

Current initiatives: In several cantons, a general ban is being demanded:

• St. Gallen
• Aargau
• Zurich

Matthias' critical question: "I wonder how the formulation 'conspicuously religiously influenced clothing items and symbols' will really be interpreted."

Are ALL really meant?

• The cross around the neck of a design and technology teacher?
• The habit of the Latin teacher at the cathedral school?
• The kippah of a geography teacher?
• Or is it only about the primary school teacher's headscarf?

Lenz: "I'd have a hot tip [which ones are meant]..."

Matthias clarifies:

• These are all "initiatives, emotions" - "lowest level of political idea"
• Everything still "super vague"

Are there also initiatives against female students? Yes - there are initiatives that female students under 16 at public AND private schools should not wear "religiously influenced clothing items."

Lenz: "Wait, only female students? If I as a man wear a large cross around my neck?"

Matthias: "No, no, sorry - boys are also meant. It's not so gendered that it would only affect girls."

Lenz (jokingly): "And you're still allowed to reenact Christ's Passion on your way to school as a boy?"

Matthias: "What, on the way to school? We're talking in school."

Florian: "You just have to do it like the Germans: You go to school with your cross on your back, but not into the school."

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GERMANY - Lenz's Report

Lenz: "We also don't have general headscarf bans to the extent that you're now trying in Austria."

Federal Constitutional Court 2015:

• Teachers cannot be banned from wearing headscarves across the board
• Reason: It restricts religious freedom

Consequences:

• Federal states with such bans gradually abolished them
• Except Berlin

The Curious Case of Berlin

Lenz: "This is really a wonderfully typical Berlin story."

The situation:

• Berlin still formally has the ban
• Also applies to female police officers and judicial employees
• 2020: Explicit court ruling AGAINST this Berlin law
• State appealed but without success

Consequences:

• State must pay five-figure sums in damages
• To applicants who were not hired because of the unlawful law

Lenz's explanation: "You apply for a position as a teacher in Berlin, aren't hired because you wear a headscarf, then you can sue for damages - rightfully, because this law that the state refers to actually shouldn't exist anymore."

What the schools did:

• They simply started ignoring the law
• And hired teachers with headscarves anyway
• Lenz: "That's a very typical Berlin practice"

Since summer 2024:

• 10 years after the Constitutional Court ruling
• 5 years after the first ruling against the specific law
• The ruling coalition has seen fit to change the law
• Is currently in the process of doing so

Florian (ironically): "But because they are five years after it was overturned?"

Lenz: "I see a business model here."

Florian: "I would just apply with a headscarf, then get rejected and receive compensation."

Lenz: "The amounts aren't as large as in the US. We're talking about low five-figure sums here, not Swiss or American amounts."

Where Bans Exist in Germany

Outside Berlin (where the state functions):

Lenz: "In Berlin and in many other federal states, there is a ban on headscarves for legal trainees, also for judges and lay judges."

Important:

• Only in their function in court
• Not while shopping or privately
• Recognized by the court as lawful

Example: Case in Melle near Osnabrück

Lenz tells of a recent case (a few weeks ago):

What happened:

• School administration declared: Headscarves and other head coverings may only be worn with an application
• Education ministry found out about this
• Overturned this regulation
• Reason: Contradicts religious freedom - it must be exactly the other way around

Lenz's explanation: "In absolute exceptional cases, wearing headscarves can be banned, but you can't say per se that it's forbidden and you have to apply for the opposite."

Escalation:

• In the meantime there was upset
• People sprayed graffiti on the school walls
• These racially insulted the school principal
• Police are now investigating this

Lenz's conclusion: "This shows how controversial the topic still is and how many emotions it simply leads to."

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DISCUSSION ABOUT THE BAN

Florian's Position - Criticism of the Ban

Florian: "It's a totally hot topic and a difficult topic. All the more so, this unanimity with which the law was passed last week annoyed me."

Florian concedes: "Perhaps first: I do see the problem, I'm not naive."

Acknowledging the problem:

1. There is no theological reason why girls must wear headscarves
2. NEOS are right about Islamist influencers
3. There are cases where girls are forced
4. Adolescent boys harass girls who are not "chaste enough"

BUT - Florian's main criticism:

Quote from feminist magazine "Anschläge": "Are boys who only understand veiled girls and women as decent motivated to emancipatory change by a headscarf ban? No, of course not."

Florian's central thesis: "The problem is idiotic men and certain forms of religious interpretation. And our solution is then: We ban girls under 14 from what they may and may not do."

Additional points of criticism:

1. Who has to implement it?

• Like with the mobile phone ban: Teachers have to control it
• "We outsource the control to teachers"
• "They now stand in the classrooms, they have to explain and implement the law. Good luck with that."

2. Social democratic teachers were against it:

• Unlike their own party (SPÖ)

Lenz's Position - More Differentiated

Lenz on bans for minors: "You argued that now the solution is to ban girls from doing things because of problems. I would say: Well, that's the principle of being a minor."

But: "I can find one thing wrong and another thing right."

Lenz's arguments:

1. Bans for minors are fundamentally okay: "That people who are not yet 18 are banned from things - that doesn't just apply now in this headscarf example, but with alcohol, driving cars, or recently also with social media for under 16-year-olds in Australia."

2. Cross vs. headscarf: "I could discuss at length whether a headscarf that covers the entire head of a 12-year-old has the same depth of intervention as a cross hung in a classroom. But I might have to leave that to theologians."

Lenz's conclusion: "Honestly, I feel much the same as Matthias does. I also recognize the dilemma:

• A headscarf is not a particularly liberal symbol
• But clothing bans are also not liberal
• You can't have both - one always comes at the expense of the other"

Important point from Lenz: "Perhaps one should also realize that it's worth looking at those who absolutely want to ban something."

Analysis of ban supporters: "That the girls please shouldn't look so Muslim in Austria - that connects to a need that I know in Germany from the cityscape debate."

The real problem: "The country just doesn't look the way you'd like it to - namely headscarf-free in case of doubt."

Lenz's most important insight: "This shows that from the side of those who want to ban it, it's also a kind of self-reassurance performance. A somehow crisis-ridden Christian-Western self-understanding that wants to feel strong and therefore says: 'No, man, all those headscarves, we just don't want to have them.' And that is of course also a sign of weakness."

Florian: "Self-reassurance performance is a beautiful word, Lenz. You could write that about many Austrian debates."

Matthias's Arguments - Pro Ban (or at least thoughtful)

Matthias: "Somewhere the word 'ban' comes around the corner in Austria, something gets banned, then you scream [directed at Florian]. And now you sit there like 'hm, hm, hm'."

Matthias's main arguments:

1. Who is the ban directed at? "When you ban something for minors, you're also addressing the legal guardians. That's in the law."

But: "How is this to be explained to parents, that they get their girls